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[Python-Dev] IDLE in the stdlib

Terry Reedy tjreedy at udel.edu
Thu Mar 21 02:17:08 CET 2013 
On 3/20/2013 6:48 PM, Kurt B. Kaiser wrote:

> It seems to me that we are seeing increasing use of IDLE for beginner
> training. I've seen several recent Python books that use IDLE as their
> programming environment, and which include IDLE screen captures in the
> text.

Well, one can hardly use Command Prompt captures, unless one were to 
flip black and white within the window (but not its frame).

> I've always felt that IDLE should be targeted to an eight year old
> beginner, and should work uniformly across the major platforms.  That
> now includes the Raspberry Pi!!

I think it should also work uniformly across Python versions. That is 
the gist of PEP434.

> I believe it's very important that Python come with an IDE as part of
> the "batteries"  - it's very awkward for a beginner to write code in
> something like Notepad and then run and debug it in a Windows command shell.

I cut and pasted when I began ;-).

> IDLE has a single keystroke round trip - it's an IDE, not just an editor
> like Sublime Text or Notepad.  In the 21st century, people expect some
> sort of IDE.  Or, they should!

I have never understood those who suggest that an editor, even a super 
editor, can replace IDLE's one key F5-run, with one click return to the 
spot of the foul on syntax errors.

> OTOH, development is likely to be more vigorous if it's separate.

Perhaps, perhaps not, or perhaps it would become 'too' vigorous if too 
many developers pushed multiple 'kitchen sinks'.

> I'd also like to make a plea to keep IDLE's interface clean and basic.
> There are lots of complex IDEs available for those who want them.  It's
> natural for developers to add features, that's what they do :-), but you
> don't hand a novice a Ferrari (or emacs) and expect good results.  IMHO
> some of the feature patches on the tracker should be rejected on that
> basis.

Have you commented on those issues? I so far have mostly concentrated on 
fixing current features. I agree that major new features should be 
considered carefully and perhaps discussed on a revived idle-sig list. I 
have never used some of the existing features, like breakpoints, that 
seem pretty advanced. I first opened a debugger window only recently, in 
order to comment on a issue about a possible bug. We should document how 
to use that before adding anything else comparable.

> It's sometimes said that IDLE is "ugly" or "broken".  These terms are
> subjective!

When IDLE-closing bugs are all fixed, I would like to see how much 
difference themed widgets would make to appearance. Then we could debate 
whether IDLE should look 'native' on each platform or have a common 
'Python' theme -- or have both and let users choose.

> If it's truly broken, then we should fix it.  If it's
> "broken" because a feature is missing, maybe that's an intentional part
> of Guido's design of a simple Python IDE.

Without a vision and design document, it is sometimes hard for someone 
like me to know which is which.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy
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