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web programming: experiences with non-zope frameworks?

Brendan O'Connor brendano at stanford.edu
Sun Dec 21 13:44:29 EST 2003 
> I'll give some heretical advice: if
> you're doing a big project, set aside some of the development time to
> evaluate what's out there and adopt or develop something that's best
> for your specific needs, with the understanding that you're going to
> have to maintain it yourself.  If you're doing a small project and
> can't afford to set aside that much time, then hold your nose and
> write in PHP or even Perl (HTML::Mason is an impressive package if you
> don't mind the cancer that is Perl, so it would be great if someone
> wrote something like it for Python).

That's certainly a shame to hear.  I'm very concerned that any given
python framework I'd choose might not be around a few years from now; it
seems that none of them have the popularity needed to sustain a large
community to test and achieve maturity, write books and top-quality
documentation, etc.

-Brendan

On 20 Dec 2003, it was written:

> Brendan O'Connor <brendano at stanford.edu> writes:
> > Can anyone make comparisons among the different frameworks?  What
> > combinations of packages do people use?  Are *any* of them substantially
> > more popular than any other?
>
> There have been a few other comparisons done.  That shootout page you
> mentioned isn't bad.  Zope is the most established but is its own world.
> Twisted to me shows the most determination to do things correctly, but
> its learning curve is steep, and there's a lot that it doesn't do for
> you.  Basically none of these systems impresses me as really being
> ready for prime time.
>
> > I think it would be nice to have not another list of several dozen one-man
> > projects, but rather a collection of practical knowledge to narrow a
> > python web programmer's options to the realistic and mature choices.
>
> The closest thing to a realistic and mature choice is Zope, and yet it's
> not really satisfying.  I'll give some heretical advice: if you're doing
> a big project, set aside some of the development time to evaluate what's
> out there and adopt or develop something that's best for your specific
> needs, with the understanding that you're going to have to maintain it
> yourself.  If you're doing a small project and can't afford to set aside
> that much time, then hold your nose and write in PHP or even Perl
> (HTML::Mason is an impressive package if you don't mind the cancer that
> is Perl, so it would be great if someone wrote something like it for
> Python).
>
> Another approach: some friends of mine did a hybrid system with a web
> interface in PHP and backend functions in Python, and were very happy
> with the results.  My reaction is that if Python and PHP both had big
> enough shortcomings to justify the cost of the two-interpreter,
> two-language approach, then then neither of them really deserves
> advocacy.
>
> Python is certainly a better implementation language than PHP, but if
> you're doing web applications in it, you really need a pioneer spirit.
> After you get through choosing and evaluating a web framework, you
> next have to choose and evaluate a database interface--sheesh.  Python
> is nowhere near as mature for out-of-the-box quick web development as
> PHP is.  Of course that may change in the future.  However, that's the
> state of things today.
>
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